Presby-schmerians

There's this little throw-down opening up at Doug Wilson's blog over what credobaptism "means", and one commenter tossed out this doozy:
A word about baptistic baptism. I grew up in the Church of Christ, where, even though they'd rather be stoned to death than be called a "Baptist," nevertheless their concept of baptism is uber-baptistic.

There is more to the credo part of credobaptism than just a "background check," or even "confirmation." Underlying the baptistic concept of baptism is the philosophical premise that God does not interfere with the unadulterated, absolute free will of men (who, by the way, are morally tabula-rasa at birth).

In other words, credobaptism, at its foundation, is an explicit denial of both God's sovereignty in the area of human will, and the fact that man is dead in sin. This is why it is so repulsive. And this is primarily why I left the COC ("this" being the denials, not the symptomatic credo-stuff).

So when a COC elder or a Baptist pastor starts the interrogation, what they're looking for is: 1)some kind of evidence that the baptismal candidate has reached the mental age where (the philosophical argument goes) she can be reasonably expected to exercise a high level of beloved rationality, and 2)some evidence that the candidate has in fact used her rational ability to remove her own heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh (all by herself).

Uuugghhhh... I believed that stuff for 30 years...
Yeah. Whatever. My first response was that this was dumb-factor of 12 on a scale of 5, and I invited our blog friend here to D-Blog this subject, but he passed. Instead, he wanted to know where his opinion went south, and I told him something like what follows.

That said, the "interview" is seeking evidence of faith. Just like in a paedo church prior to confirmation when they comb over the catechism so as to confirm (hence ...) the evidence of faith, so does the ordained baptist malcontent when he asks for one's "testimony".

Seeking the evidence of faith does not imply the superiority of free will over God's sovereignty. It seeks to announce His sovereign action through Baptism. Baptism is for the faithful not for anyone we hope will get faith.
For example, when John the Alcoholic gets baptized at age 47 because Pastor Abe at First Proper Presbyterian evangelized him at the barber shop, presbyterians would not then go an baptize all of Abe's college age atheist children, would they? Why not -- because human free will is sovereign? Or because baptism is for those in faith? See - if what is at issue is that faith is promised to the children of the faithful, then the age of the person gaining faith shouldn't matter. And that goes double for the classic "household baptisms" defense. "Households" in those days were often extended family deals - so what do we do with that if we go paedo on the one hand?

Those adult kids of John the Alcoholic don't have a reservation at the fount just because Dad is suddenly regenerate: why would the infant kids?
I know there's a WCF answer to this, but it only answers the latter half of the question -- not the former half. It ignores the former half.
The comeback was classic:
Whoa, hoss. First, adults who display an obvious lack of faith are presumed to be unfaithful precisely because all the evidence says that they are. Infant children of covenant parents are presumed to be faithful precisely because all the evidence says they are.

Second, you must recognise that credo-baptism is no more "reliable" a measure of true faith than paedobaptism. In both cases, those administering the sign of the covenant are relying upon God's promises concerning covenant status. John says that no man can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit (good enough for the credo-b). And Paul says "but now your children are holy" (good enough for the paedo-b). In neither case do you get a signed, notarized certificate, and in both cases you get the occasional bad apple, which apparently is okay with God, if circumcission is any indicator.
See: the presumption that someone has faith because their parents have faith is fine - unless they do things bad by their own free will. Then we can judge them sinners who need to repent. So while LongShot here wants to pin some kind of crypto-pelagianism on baptists, he's a crypto-pelagian as well because of the value he hangs on bad works.

See: what makes us sinners is not the sin we do - it's our nature. We have this sin nature which makes us sinners. And the question is whether there is a faith which lives inside us as a result of Grace. Baptism is a demonstration of what God has done in us, not what he might do in the future.

Last off, there’s no question there are some false credobaptisms. But let’s be serious: is anyone saying there are –fewer- false paedobaptisms? How about in churches ordaining women and openly-gay men? The objection is hollow when we think about what one of the objectives of baptism is – which is that it brings those who are called by God to Him and demonstrates His work upon them.

No seriously: NOW I am going on vacation.

Candies and Nuts

From the e-mail bag, before I go on vacation:

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:53:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Frank Turk"
Subject: Re: Maybe she should have left
To: "Coram Deo"

Notes below. If you want a sound bite for your blog
or whatever, I'm sure you can find a way to position
me in the worst like possible using something from
below.

--- Coram Deo wrote:

> Frank,
>
> Long time no speak (mostly due to being banned from
> both your blog & Pyro),
> but nonetheless I thought I'd share this one with
> you.

Wow. How nice of you to share. It's odd that you
don't remember being banned for giving lectures --
that you just say things and don't defend them, and
are unwilling to defend them, and what you say doesn't
lie up to any facts.

Just being banned. That says something -- about
-you-. Too bad you don't know what that is.

> I guess your pastor calling the police and having
> you dragged from church in
> handcuffs is grounds to leave your local church even
> in Frank Turk's world,
> right? Or maybe not?

Because you are a reactionary who doesn't read
anything thoroughly, you have apparently missed this
part of the story:

[QUOTE]
According to Mrs. Caskey, she contacted her lawyer and
asked her to represent her in the meeting at the
church. The meeting was not held, and through friends
in the small town of Allen, Caskey was told that “they
were going to try and dismiss me from the church.”
[/QUOTE]

Now, let me ask you -- where, in my recent series of
posts, have I ever advocated going back to a church
that you have been thrown out of? Anywhere? List one
post.

Yes: the meeting "was not held". The fact that they
notified her that they wanted to hold it would be
enough to tell me -- and any reasonable person -- that
she is not wanted there. However, she never
followed up as to why the meeting wasn't held. The
article doesn't say why it wasn't held. But she knew
that she was no longer welcome.

If you can point me to where I said, "go back until
they carry you out in cuffs," you can then have some
royal indignation. Until then, You are only
demonstrating to me that I did a really smart thing by
banning you. You're an ignoramus who thinks that he
has some moral high-ground from which to issue edicts.

> Perhaps this gray haired
> saint should just take it up
> with the elders after she's been sprung from the
> pokey? Oh, and how about
> the other members? Her children, grandchildren and
> other family, her
> brothers and sisters in the Lord beside whom she's
> faithfully served
> alongside for 50 years, I guess so long as they're
> not being arrested and
> dragged from service they ought to just stay put and
> remain under their
> loving pastor's authority and care, right?

No. She shouldn't have gone back. Do I think her
"pastor" did something despicable and vile? Why yes:
yes I do. I think he's the villain in this little
morality play. But he's a villain who has been
enabled by all those who left and so-called elders who
have no way to hold him accountable.

Mrs. Caskey is certainly one victim in this event.
But it seems rather stupid to go back when one is
being actively told they are not welcome, doesn't it?
You might paint this as her being persecuted -- and I
might find a way to agree with you about that. But
isn't that /what we should expect/ when we stand up
for Christ against the world?

When a worldly man takes over a church as pastor, it's
the Gospel against his slice of the world. We should
expect the world to hate us.

Shouldn't we?

> Coram

To save you some time, I'm going to post this e-mail
to my blog for people's summer reading. Then, when
you mis-represent me (again) you can link to that post
so people can see the whole conversation.

Happy 4th -- don't handle any lit fireworks.

in Christ,

Frank

UPDATED: here's CoramDeo's reply, via e-mail:

Thanks for taking the time to reply Frank.

I wasn't sure I'd hear back from you,
but the tone and content of your
response is about what I expected.
I do pray that the Lord will open your
eyes to the truth someday soon in
order that He might use your not
inconsiderable gifts for His glory as
opposed to their current wasteful
misuse defending the harlot apostate church.

Enjoy your vacation and God bless.

Coram Deo


What a guy.

Just one. No, really ...

After a week of listening to guys like Roy Hargrave and Tom Ascol speak (yeah, yeah, David Wells ...), I'm full. Not another bite. I couldn't read a single word of Zens paper even as a purgative.

However, I do have a question for anyone reading this blog today -- and it stems from some things that happened to me and Dan and Phil not directly related to the Founders Conference, or related to anyone we saw at the conference.

Let's imagine you're a pastor, and you have a statement of faith which begins like this:
We believe:

the Bible is God's Word. It is accurate, authoritative and applicable to our every day lives. (2 Timothy 3:15-17)
Seriously now: good on you. That's real meat -- real Confessional foundations there. That's where any other statement about the faith you could make would have a place to stand as you roll out your convictions.

But then let's imaging that this is the rest of your statement of faith:
there is one God who is the Creator of all things and is eternally existent in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. (John 14:18-27)

that man was created in God's image, but is separated from God by sin. His only hope of redemption is in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (Gen. 1:26-31, 3:1-7; Romans 5:12-21)

in salvation by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

that our eternal destination of either Heaven or hell is determined by our response to the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 3:16-17, 5:24)

in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as a subsequent gift to salvation. (Acts 19:1-6)

it is the Father's will for believers to become whole, healthy and successful in all areas of life. Because of the fall, many may not receive the full benefits of God's will while on earth. That fact, though, should never prevent all believers from seeking the full benefits of Christ's provision in order to better serve others.

1) Spiritual (2 Corinthians 5:17-21)

2) Mental (Philippians 4:7-8)

3) Physical (1 Peter 2:24 )

4) Financial (2 Corinthians 9:6-10)
As they say: that's it. That's the whole statement of faith.

Without getting all fisky over the problems evident in this affirmation, let me ask you: if the Bible is "God's Word ... accurate, authoritative and applicable to our every day lives", this statement of faith seems to leave out, well, most of the Bible.

I couldn't say much more today without passing out from theological overload, but I want you to think about this: if this is a valid statement of faith for a church, why would anyone have a reason to attend that church faithfully? Would attendance even be on your radar?

I know it is for you people. Be in the Lord's house on the Lord's day with the Lord's people this weekend, and try to treat the "accurate, authoritative and applicable" Word of God as if it has more than 27 verses of Scripture in it. Because you know what? It does -- and they are.

GUTS Church

Oh boy. Wait 'til I get back from vacation ...

Sister Mary Viriginity

if you haven't seen this, you should go ahead and see what's cooking at the Catholic Church.

Those Franciscans sure have come a long way from the simple brothers ...

Dr. Orthoblogia

I know that everyone who reads this blog reads AOMIN.org every single day, but this post deserves a special mention because it's a lot funnier than James usually tries to achieve.

Things we didn't do

While there's a certain charm to the nostalgic rhetoric Vladamir Putin is currently engaged in, it's sort of nutty that he thinks wants to compare acts committed in war time against an enemy to acts of a government against its own people.

Last meme ever

Seriously now: how am I supposed to blog when people keep tagging me for personal information?

Lisa tagged me with this list-maker:

1. Link to name of person that tagged you.
2. Include state and country you live in.
3. List top 5 favorite local restaurants.
4. Tag 5 other people and let them know they’ve been tagged.

Everyone knows where I live. It's a source of stress for my wife.

There are not 5 local restaurants where I live -- I'd have to list regional.

In no particular order:

-- Barnette's Dairiette
-- Mama Z's
-- Fudrucker's
-- Phil's
-- Kathy's

And I will not tag anyone. The meme stops here.

Meta-blogging

Those of you following the Zens critique got a fix yesterday, and it turns out that it's a timely thing as it sort of runs together with the new/old topic at TeamPyro, which is Dan Kimball's new book, They Like Jesus but Not the Church.

I say that because Pastor Kimball advocates for something which the Zens paper says is OK by the Bible -- which is, female leadership in the church. And by "advocates", I mean, "it doesn't really know why the church has never done that in 2000 years".

I'm sure Pastor Kimball is a smarter guy than his chapter on that topic comes across, but that's next up. I'll post a review of that book sometime after the Founders' conference next week, and then we can break out the hammers and tongs about female church leadership over here.

In the meantime, you might want to review the following post which I would qualify as the "Best of centuri0n":

The last installment of my Tony Campolo review (you might enjoy following the links to read the whole thing)

A somewhat-bloated commentary on the clarity of Scripture (too many big words)

This one about orthodoxy

This one about the letter to Diognetus

This one for the diagram if nothing else

this one to note our humble beginnings

This one which turns out to be about the Gospel rather than about gay rights

And lastly, because I am sure you don't remember it, read this one because your church needs it

And have a nice week. I may post incidentals from Tulsa next week. If you're at Founders, I'll be the guy trying not to look like I'm part of Phil's entourage. In the mean time, be with the Lord's people on the Lord's day in the Lord's house.

booyah.

Global Warming Cooling

Dude. I'm sure glad the SBC passed a resolution about Global Warming and not about membership integrity ...

... the good news is that, like all fads, when the SBC gets involved it is officially a dead fad -- completely passe.